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Post by nonameneeded on Mar 3, 2024 18:56:51 GMT -8
I already have very long exclusion lists for many mods. I think the easiest and least time-consuming solution is to use the "traditional" method to enable classic theme for a couple of days and then find out if and how often dwm.exe has crashed. If it doesn't crash anymore, it would be quite obvious that the handle method mod is the culprit. What "traditional" method you are referring to? ClassicThemeTray does exactly what the mod does. There is no difference. As I said before. I now use CTT again and in the next couple of days I will see if and how often DWM crashes. If it crashes as often as it did in the last couple of days, I know for sure that the handle mod cannot be the causing the problem.
If however DWM no longer crashes, it's a clear indication that the handle mod causes the problem.
(i really don't know what CTT does and I don't know what the handle mod does, if you say it does exactly the same thing, I certainly won't say you're wrong, because I simply don't know)
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clara
Sophomore Member
Posts: 118
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Post by clara on Mar 4, 2024 6:18:36 GMT -8
The thing is: since CTT uses the same method, as i unrerstood ephemeralViolette, DWM will crash anyway, the only question is how frequently.
And again, overall it all just boils down to Windows 11 being at this stage not very classic theme friendly
Only one user so far reported any DWM crashes in Classic theme. I also use Win11 without any issues. On what is based your claim that Win11 is not theme-friendly? The DWM crashes are obviouusly because of the other mads and the user should disable them one-by-one to test (which he refuses to do).
Please meet me halfway here: i am not accusing your mod. I love using it. I am just saying that with all of the stupid changes like removing the old taskbar and changing behaviors left and right for no reason MS is making work of the community harder. That's all i said. From what i know, i'm not alone in this opinion, however, i'm not here to cast doom and gloom either, it all can be done. However i do share your frustration when one user is calling a mod unsafe based on the sample size of one while doing activities which seem to be known to cause problems. I should also note that i have checked my logs more carefully and i did find a few instances of DWM entering a crash-reboot loop. While i DO NOT claim mod as the culprit (i have no logs archived prior to a few days of mod being installed thus there is no way to check prior DWM behavior, also i just think that my computer running out of RAM is the culprit), explanation by ephemeralViolette also makes sense. I don't think handle method (be in windhawk or CCT doing it) is "the danger", but whatever faults it have cam be brought up by whatever problematic crap user is doing.
My honest opinion is: don't do real work on your hobby setup.
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Post by anixx on Mar 4, 2024 6:30:02 GMT -8
If the handle is closed before DWM starts, DWM cannot start at all. Not unstable start, just no start at all.
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Post by nonameneeded on Mar 4, 2024 7:56:25 GMT -8
when one user is calling a mod unsafe based on the sample size of one while doing activities which seem to be known to cause problems. I certainly didn't call it unsafe.
And the only thing I'm doing wrong is to use mods and other stuff necessary to make Windows 11 look normal with the classic theme. But that's what everybody does here so I'm not sure what you're trying to say.
On top of that, I always try to make sure to use as few mods as possible with a lot of exclusions, in order to be as safe as you can be with mods that alter a lot (because that's just the nature of these mods).
I thought and still think that it's worth mentioning that there might be a problem with the handle mod (I can't say this for sure though, I'll just have to see what happens in the next couple of days). Certainly NOT to blame anyone but in the hope that whatever causes the problems might get fixed.
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Post by anixx on Mar 4, 2024 8:14:01 GMT -8
What Windhawk version are you using? Is it 1.3? Some mods are known to crash DWM, for instance: winclassic.net/post/15200/threadBut since you keep secret what mods you are running, we cannot help.
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Post by nonameneeded on Mar 4, 2024 8:27:16 GMT -8
It's no secret. It's just that no one asked me before...
So these are the mods I use (PLUS DWM unextend frames and client edge for open/save dialogs, which didn't fit on the screenshot)
The Classic taskbar fixer mod can't be the culprit, since I've used it for quite some time. The DWM unextend frame mod also shouldn't cause any problems because it's basically disabled except for a few processes (mmc.exe notepad.exe thunderbird.exe dccw.exe cttune.exe waterfox.exe mspaint.exe Default Programs Editor.exe explorer.exe winpaletter.exe)
All mods have dwm.exe and critical system processes excluded.
P.S. I use Windhawk version 1.4.1
So these are the loaded mods:
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Post by OrthodoxWin32 on Mar 4, 2024 8:47:58 GMT -8
What Windhawk version are you using? Is it 1.3? Some mods are known to crash DWM, for instance: winclassic.net/post/15200/threadBut since you keep secret what mods you are running, we cannot help. In recent versions of Windhawk, DWM is excluded if it is not explicitly targeted by the mod. Crashing DWM by a Windawk mod which does not aim to inject DWM is therefore impossible.
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Post by OrthodoxWin32 on Mar 4, 2024 8:51:50 GMT -8
All mods have dwm.exe and critical system processes excluded. Are you sure it’s DWM that’s crashing ? It can be userinit or explorer.
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Post by anixx on Mar 4, 2024 8:56:21 GMT -8
What Windhawk version are you using? Is it 1.3? Some mods are known to crash DWM, for instance: winclassic.net/post/15200/threadBut since you keep secret what mods you are running, we cannot help. In recent versions of Windhawk, DWM is excluded if it is not explicitly targeted by the mod. Crashing DWM by a Windawk mod which does not aim to inject DWM is therefore impossible.
That's why I was asking if it is version 1.3
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Post by OrthodoxWin32 on Mar 4, 2024 9:02:45 GMT -8
My honest opinion is: don't do real work on your hobby setup.
This is understandable, after all everyone has a different experience. For my part, I don't really have a choice of work on the machine on hobby setup is installed. And I've never had a serious problem related to it (for what is really critical, I am testing on a virtual machine). The most serious problems are sudden blue screens, the origin of which is unclear to me, but which started when I purchased the machine (so it is probably a problem with certain drivers).
But I know you're not as lucky as I am with Windows. I have become accustomed to making actions that scare most people seem trivial to me. Whereas on Linux, I encounter problems (notably installing applications) that very few people complain about.
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Post by OrthodoxWin32 on Mar 4, 2024 9:11:31 GMT -8
That's why I was asking if it is version 1.3 OK, I understand
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Post by nonameneeded on Mar 4, 2024 11:06:30 GMT -8
All mods have dwm.exe and critical system processes excluded. Are you sure it’s DWM that’s crashing ? It can be userinit or explorer. Pretty sure, yes.
Because the error message says that dwm.exe has crashed.
But let me clarify something nonetheless (not only for you but for everybody to understand the problem better):
At first, I thought that dwm.exe behaves differently on Windows 11 and that it will therefore throw me out of Windows whenever dwm.exe crashes (that's basically what I wrote in the first post in this thread). But I was wrong about that because dwm.exe crashes frequently (with the handle method several times a day) and then tries to restart several times but these problems usually go unnoticed, since nothing bad happens. Only rarely will it happen that dwm.exe crashes and that the user will be thrown out of Windows because of that.
But it's bad enough when it happens.
And there are signs that the handle method seems to be responsible for that because every time I turned it on I got to see dozens of dwm.exe crashes and restarts in the event log (even though usually nothing bad happens).
Of course, other mods could be responsible for that too but as far as I can tell by now that doesn't seem to be the case.
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Post by OrthodoxWin32 on Mar 4, 2024 17:13:38 GMT -8
Pretty sure, yes.
Because the error message says that dwm.exe has crashed.
But let me clarify something nonetheless (not only for you but for everybody to understand the problem better):
At first, I thought that dwm.exe behaves differently on Windows 11 and that it will therefore throw me out of Windows whenever dwm.exe crashes (that's basically what I wrote in the first post in this thread). But I was wrong about that because dwm.exe crashes frequently (with the handle method several times a day) and then tries to restart several times but these problems usually go unnoticed, since nothing bad happens. Only rarely will it happen that dwm.exe crashes and that the user will be thrown out of Windows because of that.
But it's bad enough when it happens.
And there are signs that the handle method seems to be responsible for that because every time I turned it on I got to see dozens of dwm.exe crashes and restarts in the event log (even though usually nothing bad happens).
Of course, other mods could be responsible for that too but as far as I can tell by now that doesn't seem to be the case. This just reminded me that I had the same thing, error reports of DWM crashing and restarting frequently. I can't check if this is still happening, because error reporting is disabled (I need to find a way to put it back, I must have disabled it by mistake). I use CTT too. But I have never had a DWM crash without restarting. I think you have started an interesting subject, I will continue to investigate the question.
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Post by nonameneeded on Mar 9, 2024 11:57:54 GMT -8
A couple of days have passed now. I didn't have any dwm crashes since the 3rd of March so it's quite likely that the problem is somehow related to the handle mod.
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Post by anixx on Mar 9, 2024 19:51:26 GMT -8
A couple of days have passed now. I didn't have any dwm crashes since the 3rd of March so it's quite likely that the problem is somehow related to the handle mod. The handle mod is an automatic (AI) translation of ClassicThemeTray from C# to C++.
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Post by OrthodoxWin32 on Mar 10, 2024 5:14:22 GMT -8
The handle mod is an automatic (AI) translation of ClassicThemeTray from C# to C++. The issue may be related to how Windhawk works. Windhawk injects processes before session startup, whereas we typically set CTT to be started after session startup (just before userinit).
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Post by anixx on Mar 10, 2024 5:16:04 GMT -8
The issue may be related to how Windhawk works. Windhawk injects processes before session startup Of course, not.
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Post by OrthodoxWin32 on Mar 10, 2024 5:21:47 GMT -8
This is the case for some mods. For example, I manage with this mod I am able to obtain the console with a classic theme frame before starting the session.
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Post by anixx on Mar 10, 2024 5:25:57 GMT -8
This is the case for some mods. For example, I manage with this mod I am able to obtain the console with a classic theme frame before starting the session. What do you mean by "before starting the session"?
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Post by anixx on Mar 10, 2024 5:33:27 GMT -8
What I can tell is that often classic theme mod starts after Explorer, leaving the Explorer unthemed...
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