MajinTails
New Member
Posts: 21
OS: Microsoft Windows 11 Home 22H2
Theme: Aerolite without High Contrast
CPU: 11th Gen Intel( Core( i5-11400F
RAM: 16 Gigabytes
GPU: NVIDIA Geforce GTX 1650 Super
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Post by MajinTails on Oct 23, 2024 15:43:35 GMT -8
Well, more or less I'm getting everything I will be doing here from the early Windows NT equivalents or thereabouts but that's besides the point. While I would have to do things like manually make Program Groups and track down stuff I might want or need for this, I really wanted to do this since I absolutely adore the Windows 3.1 interface and the Program Manager - something just speaks to me about that windows-within-windows interface and the feel and particular organization of it. This idea also came to me after I started to disable and debloat even more of the unwanted stuff in 11 and revert some of the changes and things of it to Windows 10 and earlier. Right now I have copies of Program Manager and the File Manager (latter being the version Microsoft released on their Github), disabled most of the visual effects in Windows, and am using the Aerolite theme out of preference for it and without High Contrast enabled (better this way tbh since Aerolite doesn't have those inconsistent Aero Basic title bars from Vista / 7 which Progman and File Manager otherwise would of been using) Basically what I'm doing here is that I have the intention of using Windows 11 as though it was 3.1 via usage of programs from or similar to it, and a few other changes and extras to further accomplish this and achieve the feel. Using Task Manager to kill Explorer while Program Manager is running has this interesting weird effect where explorer doesn't restart and running it will just pop up the file explorer without the rest, but progman and such remain and when you minimize windows they turn into condensed title bars - this effectively gets rid of the modern windows UI so you can have purely Progman, but it has things that might be issues for people like no search bar, no desktop right click menu, no wallpaper and the unfortunately necessary UWP Settings app not loading at all. What I do is keep explorer running but hide the desktop icons and the taskbar so that it keeps things intact (especially if they might be useful or required) while increasing the effect of what I want to do. Well obvious things I might want to consider doing are getting sound effects from Windows 3.1 (and maybe some slightly later OSes) and making a sound scheme from them, as well as wallpaper images. I'll probably share more of what I do for this overtime.
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Kiyaku
Sophomore Member
Live and Learn
Posts: 189
OS: Windows 10 Pro 22h2
Theme: Windows 7
CPU: Intel Core i5-1035G1 CPU
RAM: 4 GB (3.60 GB Usable)
Computer Make/Model: Microsoft Surface Laptop Go 3
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Post by Kiyaku on Oct 23, 2024 15:57:56 GMT -8
Well, more or less I'm getting everything I will be doing here from the early Windows NT equivalents or thereabouts but that's besides the point. While I would have to do things like manually make Program Groups and track down stuff I might want or need for this, I really wanted to do this since I absolutely adore the Windows 3.1 interface and the Program Manager - something just speaks to me about that windows-within-windows interface and the feel and particular organization of it. This idea also came to me after I started to disable and debloat even more of the unwanted stuff in 11 and revert some of the changes and things of it to Windows 10 and earlier. Right now I have copies of Program Manager and the File Manager (latter being the version Microsoft released on their Github), disabled most of the visual effects in Windows, and am using the Aerolite theme out of preference for it and without High Contrast enabled (better this way tbh since Aerolite doesn't have those inconsistent Aero Basic title bars from Vista / 7 which Progman and File Manager otherwise would of been using) Basically what I'm doing here is that I have the intention of using Windows 11 as though it was 3.1 via usage of programs from or similar to it, and a few other changes and extras to further accomplish this and achieve the feel. Using Task Manager to kill Explorer while Program Manager is running has this interesting weird effect where explorer doesn't restart and running it will just pop up the file explorer without the rest, but progman and such remain and when you minimize windows they turn into condensed title bars - this effectively gets rid of the modern windows UI so you can have purely Progman, but it has things that might be issues for people like no search bar, no desktop right click menu, no wallpaper and the unfortunately necessary UWP Settings app not loading at all. What I do is keep explorer running but hide the desktop icons and the taskbar so that it keeps things intact (especially if they might be useful or required) while increasing the effect of what I want to do. Well obvious things I might want to consider doing are getting sound effects from Windows 3.1 (and maybe some slightly later OSes) and making a sound scheme from them, as well as wallpaper images. I'll probably share more of what I do for this overtime. Wow, nice job! How did you do all of that?
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MajinTails
New Member
Posts: 21
OS: Microsoft Windows 11 Home 22H2
Theme: Aerolite without High Contrast
CPU: 11th Gen Intel( Core( i5-11400F
RAM: 16 Gigabytes
GPU: NVIDIA Geforce GTX 1650 Super
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Post by MajinTails on Oct 24, 2024 3:11:52 GMT -8
Wow, nice job! How did you do all of that? Windows allows you to hide the taskbar by right clicking on it > taskbar settings (opens settings) > taskbar behaviors > automatically hide the taskbar. By right clicking on the desktop (with the old right click menu) and going to view then unchecking "Show Desktop Icons". Rudimentary but since I wasn't killing explorer or replacing the shell because of issues doing that has and me simply being too squeamish to do so, as well as some benefits from keeping explorer running, I went with it. Frankly the illusion is certainly there unless you move your cursor all the way to the bottom of the screens which causes the taskbar to pop up (this is only really necessary to access minimized windows though). You can actually get programs from Windows NT 3.1 (the Windows NT equivalent of Windows 3.1) working on 11 still and that's what I intend on using for additional things as I keep messing around with this - you can't really use the "regular" Windows 3.1 versions since they're 16 bit and probably have more compatibility issues even if you do run them. If you're looking for the particular version, you should probably get them from "Microsoft Windows NT 3.1 Workstation". Some programs might need other files from this version of NT as well. Program Manager (which I believe was last still part of Windows during early XP) works all the way to Windows 10, actually, though on Windows 11 it appears to blue screen the computer so if you do this on 11 you need to find alternatives. github.com/Vortesys/Program-Manager-II/tags while this is intended to be a new Program Manager and Shell Replacement (it is even listed on the Wikipedia page for Windows Shell Replacements), it is currently too basic. You can however, use that "Classic" release next to if not perfectly which is what I did since it is the only totally functional one that doesn't blue screen 11 (though there are other working alternatives / remakes of course). You can get Winfile / File Manager from NT 3.1 of course, although Microsoft actually maintains a updated version of it that can be downloaded on Github. github.com/microsoft/winfile/releasesAs far as where to put them and other NT 3.1 Programs, I would just make a cheap folder to put them all in together and access easily. Since Program Manager no longer has any program groups you have to make your own. Go to the "File" menu and hover over "New", then click "Create New Program Group". After creating it, you right click on the Program Group, hover over "New" again, and click "Program Item". With my program groups I mainly just went for imitating some default 3.1 ones - "Main", "Accessories", "Games". From there it's a memorization game of trying to not close or minimize Program Manager unless you have to since closing it (the version I use anyway) won't log off or shut off windows and, again, if you minimize it you need to hover to the bottom of the screen to open that hidden taskbar. Past that you can add modern programs to the Program Manager interface's groups and everything is fine. I use the Aerolite theme which is the backbone of High Contrast Mode from Windows 8 onward, though HC isn't enabled here. It frankly fits in a bit better and kind of reverts things since it's basically been untouched since Win8. There are a number of ways to enable it without HC but basically you can simply edit a .theme file to point to it instead of aero.msstyles or use Winaero Tweaker. Not really related to the actual goal of this (Trying to imitate 3.1 with 11), simply just my theme preference. Similarly I disabled all the visual effects in Windows except for Smooth Edges of Screen Fonts and the Translucent Selection Rectangle out of preference.
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Kiyaku
Sophomore Member
Live and Learn
Posts: 189
OS: Windows 10 Pro 22h2
Theme: Windows 7
CPU: Intel Core i5-1035G1 CPU
RAM: 4 GB (3.60 GB Usable)
Computer Make/Model: Microsoft Surface Laptop Go 3
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Post by Kiyaku on Oct 24, 2024 3:15:01 GMT -8
Wow, nice job! How did you do all of that? Windows allows you to hide the taskbar by right clicking on it > taskbar settings (opens settings) > taskbar behaviors > automatically hide the taskbar. By right clicking on the desktop (with the old right click menu) and going to view then unchecking "Show Desktop Icons". Rudimentary but since I wasn't killing explorer or replacing the shell because of issues doing that has and me simply being too squeamish to do so, as well as some benefits from keeping explorer running, I went with it. Frankly the illusion is certainly there unless you move your cursor all the way to the bottom of the screens which causes the taskbar to pop up (this is only really necessary to access minimized windows though). You can actually get programs from Windows NT 3.1 (the Windows NT equivalent of Windows 3.1) working on 11 still and that's what I intend on using for additional things as I keep messing around with this - you can't really use the "regular" Windows 3.1 versions since they're 16 bit and probably have more compatibility issues even if you do run them. If you're looking for the particular version, you should probably get them from "Microsoft Windows NT 3.1 Workstation". Some programs might need other files from this version of NT as well. Program Manager (which I believe was last still part of Windows during early XP) works all the way to Windows 10, actually, though on Windows 11 it appears to blue screen the computer so if you do this on 11 you need to find alternatives. github.com/Vortesys/Program-Manager-II/tags while this is intended to be a new Program Manager and Shell Replacement (it is even listed on the Wikipedia page for Windows Shell Replacements), it is currently too basic. You can however, use that "Classic" release next to if not perfectly which is what I did since it is the only totally functional one that doesn't blue screen 11 (though there are other working alternatives / remakes of course). You can get Winfile / File Manager from NT 3.1 of course, although Microsoft actually maintains a updated version of it that can be downloaded on Github. github.com/microsoft/winfile/releasesAs far as where to put them and other NT 3.1 Programs, I would just make a cheap folder to put them all in together and access easily. Since Program Manager no longer has any program groups you have to make your own. Go to the "File" menu and hover over "New", then click "Create New Program Group". After creating it, you right click on the Program Group, hover over "New" again, and click "Program Item". With my program groups I mainly just went for imitating some default 3.1 ones - "Main", "Accessories", "Games". From there it's a memorization game of trying to not close or minimize Program Manager unless you have to since closing it (the version I use anyway) won't log off or shut off windows and, again, if you minimize it you need to hover to the bottom of the screen to open that hidden taskbar. Past that you can add modern programs to the Program Manager interface's groups and everything is fine. I use the Aerolite theme which is the backbone of High Contrast Mode from Windows 8 onward, though HC isn't enabled here. It frankly fits in a bit better and kind of reverts things since it's basically been untouched since Win8. There are a number of ways to enable it without HC but basically you can simply edit a .theme file to point to it instead of aero.msstyles or use Winaero Tweaker. Not really related to the actual goal of this (Trying to imitate 3.1 with 11), simply just my theme preference. Oh I see, thats interesting. A lot of explanation but I understand the process.
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MajinTails
New Member
Posts: 21
OS: Microsoft Windows 11 Home 22H2
Theme: Aerolite without High Contrast
CPU: 11th Gen Intel( Core( i5-11400F
RAM: 16 Gigabytes
GPU: NVIDIA Geforce GTX 1650 Super
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Post by MajinTails on Oct 24, 2024 8:12:33 GMT -8
Update! I got some more old programs as well as the bitmap images, screensavers and sound effects (just need to make a sound scheme). The original Control Panel still works but points to things in modern windows, redirecting you to modern control panel and UWP settings stuff. Paintbrush works but all the colors are these weird grey patterns and whatnot (I assume maybe I do not have a file or it is just some incompatibility), you can save things with the Win3.1 Notepad and open them in modern Notepad and vice versa, Winver reports 11 as 8 basically, etc. Funny thing is these programs seem to just...work inexplicitly - the clock, Calculator, and Clipboard Viewer are still kinda useful NGL. Also note some of these have old style buttons and pixelated fonts - Character Map, Notepad, and Winver in particular. Also the games work but I don't know how to play them besides Minesweeper which I suck at so. CD Player is also there but it doesn't want to run because my computer doesn't have a CD Drive. {Screenshot} In any case, these are some if not the oldest operable programs in Windows 11.
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Legofan
Sophomore Member
Embrace modernity? Nah, embrace tradition.
Posts: 171
OS: Windows 11 24H2
Theme: Default
CPU: AMD Ryzen 5 3600 / Intel Pentium Gold 4425Y
RAM: 64GB / 8 GB
GPU: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1050 Ti / IGPU
Computer Make/Model: Custom Built / Surface Go 2
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Post by Legofan on Oct 25, 2024 12:54:21 GMT -8
Would be interesting if someone would figure out on how to enable desktop icons while in this mode, cause 3.1 does have desktop icons of sorts.
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Kiyaku
Sophomore Member
Live and Learn
Posts: 189
OS: Windows 10 Pro 22h2
Theme: Windows 7
CPU: Intel Core i5-1035G1 CPU
RAM: 4 GB (3.60 GB Usable)
Computer Make/Model: Microsoft Surface Laptop Go 3
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Post by Kiyaku on Oct 25, 2024 13:07:14 GMT -8
Would be interesting if someone would figure out on how to enable desktop icons while in this mode, cause 3.1 does have desktop icons of sorts. Is it even possible though? I don't know much about Windows 3.1 so I'm not sure. Maybe someone who used Windows 3.1 could figure it out and if it is possible, I think MajinTails should do that to his desktop.
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Post by anixx on Oct 25, 2024 14:02:22 GMT -8
Would be interesting if someone would figure out on how to enable desktop icons while in this mode, cause 3.1 does have desktop icons of sorts. Hmmm. No. It does not. They are minimized windows.
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Legofan
Sophomore Member
Embrace modernity? Nah, embrace tradition.
Posts: 171
OS: Windows 11 24H2
Theme: Default
CPU: AMD Ryzen 5 3600 / Intel Pentium Gold 4425Y
RAM: 64GB / 8 GB
GPU: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1050 Ti / IGPU
Computer Make/Model: Custom Built / Surface Go 2
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Post by Legofan on Oct 25, 2024 14:04:08 GMT -8
Would be interesting if someone would figure out on how to enable desktop icons while in this mode, cause 3.1 does have desktop icons of sorts. Hmmm. No. It does not. They are minimized windows. I mean, they do show as icons on the desktop so..
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Post by OrthodoxWin32 on Oct 25, 2024 14:21:18 GMT -8
I mean, they do show as icons on the desktop so.. This is because under Windows 3.x/NT 3.x, minimized windows were displayed with icons. In later versions, this is no longer the case. If we look at MDI programs (notably progman and winfile), we find this difference in behavior in minimized child windows.
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Post by Sennanon on Oct 25, 2024 14:21:54 GMT -8
I've looked into this in the past and its definitely possible, but I haven't been able to find anything that's accurate enough
There's also a paid software, but I wouldn't recommend since it isn't accurate and I'm sure there are other ways to this for free
There was another option on codeproject that I haven't been able to find, but it had screenshots of an mdi window.
I'm actually curious if this would be possible to achieve through windhawk, or if a small program like the one in the screenshot would be better?
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MajinTails
New Member
Posts: 21
OS: Microsoft Windows 11 Home 22H2
Theme: Aerolite without High Contrast
CPU: 11th Gen Intel( Core( i5-11400F
RAM: 16 Gigabytes
GPU: NVIDIA Geforce GTX 1650 Super
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Post by MajinTails on Oct 25, 2024 15:01:59 GMT -8
Would be interesting if someone would figure out on how to enable desktop icons while in this mode, cause 3.1 does have desktop icons of sorts. Well, as other users here have said, those are actually minimized windows displayed as icons, and later versions of windows changed this. Although it doesn't really have much to do with restoring the "icon" based look, and moreso just the function of those icons, and I don't kill Explorer.exe or replace the Shell with Progman for reasons mentioned earlier, if you do do that then minimize a window, it will display as a weird hunched up title bar basically the same as in the MDI programs placed at the bottom left corner of the screen. {Spoiler}
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Post by ephemeralViolette on Oct 25, 2024 16:08:10 GMT -8
Would be interesting if someone would figure out on how to enable desktop icons while in this mode, cause 3.1 does have desktop icons of sorts. Is it even possible though? I don't know much about Windows 3.1 so I'm not sure. Maybe someone who used Windows 3.1 could figure it out and if it is possible, I think MajinTails should do that to his desktop. Minimisation to icons is as possible as Windows 3.1 window frames themselves; they are simply how the non-client area is drawn when windows are minimised. Since Windows 95, a titlebar-only view is used for this state, but applications can override this default behaviour as they wish. It is indeed possible for an application developer to make an application which has window frames just like Windows 3.1, and it's possible to hook into applications to force them to do this.
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Kiyaku
Sophomore Member
Live and Learn
Posts: 189
OS: Windows 10 Pro 22h2
Theme: Windows 7
CPU: Intel Core i5-1035G1 CPU
RAM: 4 GB (3.60 GB Usable)
Computer Make/Model: Microsoft Surface Laptop Go 3
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Post by Kiyaku on Oct 25, 2024 17:07:58 GMT -8
Is it even possible though? I don't know much about Windows 3.1 so I'm not sure. Maybe someone who used Windows 3.1 could figure it out and if it is possible, I think MajinTails should do that to his desktop. Minimisation to icons is as possible as Windows 3.1 window frames themselves; they are simply how the non-client area is drawn when windows are minimised. Since Windows 95, a titlebar-only view is used for this state, but applications can override this default behaviour as they wish. It is indeed possible for an application developer to make an application which has window frames just like Windows 3.1, and it's possible to hook into applications to force them to do this. Oh ok. I kind of get it. Thank you for explaining that.
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MajinTails
New Member
Posts: 21
OS: Microsoft Windows 11 Home 22H2
Theme: Aerolite without High Contrast
CPU: 11th Gen Intel( Core( i5-11400F
RAM: 16 Gigabytes
GPU: NVIDIA Geforce GTX 1650 Super
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Post by MajinTails on Oct 25, 2024 18:14:19 GMT -8
It appears also there is still the 3.X save dialogue in Windows 11, though I've only been able to get it to appear with Cardfile and Pbrush: Other programs I took from NT 3.1 open explorer windows when you try to save / create files, which makes this even more interesting. Between this, the minimized window behavior with explorer.exe killed while progman's running, what was brought up regarding restoring the icon format for said minimized windows, and just the inherent idea of trying to use Windows 11 like 3.X at all, there's certainly a lot of things to consider here.
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Post by ephemeralViolette on Oct 25, 2024 20:26:06 GMT -8
It appears also there is still the 3.X save dialogue in Windows 11, though I've only been able to get it to appear with Cardfile and Pbrush: Other programs I took from NT 3.1 open explorer windows when you try to save / create files, which makes this even more interesting. Between this, the minimized window behavior with explorer.exe killed while progman's running, what was brought up regarding restoring the icon format for said minimized windows, and just the inherent idea of trying to use Windows 11 like 3.X at all, there's certainly a lot of things to consider here. This is because these dialogs have custom controls inside of them, so in order to maintain backwards compatibility, when Windows 95 was being developed, they made it fall back to the older dialog style as to not break the layout or functionality of older applications. This backwards compatibility choice has survived ever since.
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MajinTails
New Member
Posts: 21
OS: Microsoft Windows 11 Home 22H2
Theme: Aerolite without High Contrast
CPU: 11th Gen Intel( Core( i5-11400F
RAM: 16 Gigabytes
GPU: NVIDIA Geforce GTX 1650 Super
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Post by MajinTails on Oct 27, 2024 19:18:54 GMT -8
Just cleaned up my computer recently - took some stuff out, reinstalled some things, just messing around a bit. Anyway, decided to add more Program Groups and Programs in them, some based off what are in Start Menu entries / shortcuts, as well as one with a bunch of power options so that I won't need to use the Windows Start Menu / Taskbar as much anymore for programs and searching things, and especially since it gives me the access to the shutdown perimeters through progman which are much needed for doing something like this. {Spoiler} I also made it so that Progman runs on startup / after logon. Redundant if you replace the Shell, but logical if you do what I do where it's more like a "illusion" that it is just the program manager, with the windows explorer desktop icons and taskbar hidden.
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Post by visuile on Oct 30, 2024 6:53:00 GMT -8
I tried replicating your setup, but on Windows 7, whenever I log in, explorer.exe opens in File Explorer mode and progman doesnt open despite being set to shell. I spent 4 hours reverting it because my Firewall blocked me from changing regedit, and I couldnt go into it's settings because they were located in it's tray icon, which I couldnt reach because explorer was refusing to open in taskbar mode.
Is there a way to view tray icons without explorer.exe running?
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